Breaking the category rules

In this podcast episode, hosts Adam and Laura engage in a lively conversation with Imme Ermgassen, co-founder of Botivo, a non-alcoholic, “big sipping” aperitivo.

They discuss Imme’s unique approach to brand building including breaking the non-alcoholic beverage category rules by creating a hedonistic, pleasure-focused product. She the challenges Botivo has faced in educating consumers and category buyers and the tactics she has used to create awareness and drive trial.

This is a fascinating discussion with a visionary entrepreneur and brand-builder at the top of their game.

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Transcript

Adam: This is the Persuasion Game, the Forge’s podcast all about the art of persuasion. Each episode we connect with marketers, business leaders and beyond to learn how they use persuasion to influence their customers, convince their stakeholders and drive their businesses forward.

Adam: Hi Laura, how are you?

Laura: I’m very good. Welcome back to the podcast.

Adam: Yeah, very very glad to be back. It’s our first one recording together in 2025.

Laura: under the grey skies of London.

Adam: Yeah yeah. And New Year’s resolutions — are you still… do you still have any going or are they all finished now?

Laura: Very much work in progress, TBD. I started on the Peloton with enormous enthusiasm — including 40 minutes trying to clip myself in. That’s probably the longest session I’ve done — is clipping in. So thoughts and prayers for me in February.

Adam: Oh that’s brilliant. Did you video this by any chance?

Laura: Yes, nothing I’d like better than an audience for this humiliation.

Adam: I haven’t got any New Year’s resolutions but — perfect already — yeah, as paternity leave is approaching I’ve got some paternity leave resolutions. This time around it’s my second, so this time around I’m not just going to sit on the sofa drinking wine for the entire experience — I’m going to try and be a sober second-time dad for the duration of paternity leave. We’ll see how that goes.

Laura: Well how timely — because a lot of people this month, alongside the inevitable regret and depression of overindulgence at Christmas, are exploring non-alcoholic offerings. But this time we’ve got someone rather different and a proposition that’s rather different to talk about. We’re really lucky to be talking to a founder of a non-alcoholic spirit who is really looking to reframe the category. So rather than that slightly “it’s not as bad as you think it tastes, almost like gin” type space — someone who’s really going into the world of abundance and joy and sensory exploration, that frankly we normally associate with premium spirits.

Adam: Absolutely yeah. We’re sat here today with a bottle of Botivo on our desks which we’ve cracked open in anticipation of this call. And just looking at it — you can see it’s doing something completely different. It’s got a wax top, it’s bright, it’s colourful, it’s exciting. And only at the very bottom of it in very small letters does it say non-alcoholic.

Laura: I think it’s a testament to how good its branding is that I felt a little bit naughty having it at 11am.

Adam: That’s true, me too.

Laura: I think that is pure gold. So yeah, let’s get into it.

Laura: Imme Ermgassen is co-founder of Botivo, a handcrafted non-alcoholic botanical aperitivo that has been reframing the way we look at non-alcoholic spirits. With a background in brand building and consumer understanding, Imme brings a unique perspective to the world of non-alcoholic drinks. Imme’s journey with Botivo began by chance when she discovered the drink at a friend’s gathering. Impressed by its complex bittersweet herbal citrus flavour, she saw potential in the product and approached its creator Sam Padét-Stevenson with a proposal to rebrand and relaunch. Under Imme’s co-leadership, Botivo has gained recognition for its meticulous production process — hand blending in small batches using real ingredients without flavourings or preservatives. This dedication to quality has led to Botivo being featured in numerous Michelin-starred restaurants and major supermarkets. Welcome Imme.

Imme: Hi, thanks for having me.

Laura: Including as of yesterday Waitrose, which is so exciting.

Imme: I know — it’s very good timing because we’re still kind of excited by our first grocer launch.

Laura: Yeah, and what a one to launch in terms of your positioning and everything you’re trying to achieve — it’s super exciting.

Imme: Definitely the one that everyone wants to go for first. We’ve been in Whole Foods for a while and I think that’s kind of the dream trajectory for drinks brands — you kind of launch in Whole Foods and then you move into Waitrose. So yeah, it all feels quite exciting.

Laura: But it’s a world which is quite competitive, right? We were having a conversation before this podcast began about how many competitors there are — not just in the non-alcoholic space but also in similar crafted drinks. But you’re trying really hard to push on a unique perspective with Botivo. Can we talk a little bit about that?

Imme: Yeah. I think it might be worth me explaining a bit about what Botivo is and how it’s made — maybe just for context. So Botivo is non-alcoholic — we call it a big sipping aperitivo — and it has a sort of bittersweet herbal citrus taste profile.

And actually what the product is — we’re trying to create craft in a category where craft doesn’t really exist. Craft exists in alcoholic spirits, but when it comes to non-alcoholic spirits they’re all made in fragrance houses or outsourced. And we’re trying to bring the maker and the craft back into the category.

So the product itself is made in Hertfordshire on Lanic Farm by my co-founder Sam, and it takes over a year to make. It’s the only product I think in its category which has no flavourings, essences or preservatives. We use only real ingredients — it’s actually an aged apple cider vinegar base, because apple cider vinegar is an amazing carrier of flavour, and then it’s infused with rosemary and thyme, gentian, wormwood leaf and orange zest, and then it’s balanced out with organic wildflower honey. And the result is this very intense, almost cordial-like intensity of liquid which you dilute or serve with soda water and a big squeezed slice of orange. People also drink it with tonic. And one in four of our customers also actually drink it with alcohol, because it’s a really intense liquid — so it’s quite versatile and feels quite different in that sense.

Laura: And it feels like that idea of intensity and something that’s abundant rather than something that’s had something taken out of it is one of the big points of contrast with Botivo versus a zero percent version of a spirit.

Imme: Right, exactly. I always believe that brands need to ladder up from the product itself — they have to be connected. If you’re a really punchy, powerful flavour, you have to have a really punchy, powerful brand, and vice versa. You can’t authentically have a really loud and brash brand if you’re really weak and thin in taste. They’re always connected.

And I think the key thing from the beginning when we launched Botivo was that we are not a moderation brand — we’re a pleasure brand. And that feels really different. I think particularly at the time when we launched a couple of years ago, the dominant discourse in the category was very much around moderation — like “drink for tomorrow” or “what to drink when you’re not drinking.” And actually we came into it from a very different angle, which is this is not a drink to be drinking when you’re not drinking — this is a drink to drink just because it’s really delicious.

And I think that came from quite a personal place, because I’m a big drinker of alcohol and in no way a moderator. I stumbled upon the liquid, tasted it, and just got obsessed with it. For me that was so unexpected because to this day I’m not someone who generally engages with the category. But the product was so different that it talked to me as someone coming at it from a very different angle.
So we positioned it in that space because it felt like it was rubbing up against a bit of tension in the category — and also because the product is so different and not a mimic, it almost deserved a different emotional space.

Laura: I love what you said there about the dynamic of non-alcoholic spirits tending to be like your reward comes after you’ve drunk it.

Imme: Exactly.

Laura: I think that’s so true — so often you’re like “well I won’t regret this,” which is not a hugely joyful place to come into it from. And you tend to come in because you want some joy.

Imme: Exactly. You know, with a background in understanding consumer needs — for me the idea is, I’m drinking drinks and eating delicious food because they’re delicious. And I want them to be delicious now. And I think when non-alcoholic drinks brands promise consumers moderation, that’s a wasted opportunity. Because consumers are already moderating if they’re engaging with the category. So you need to come in with a different need state — you need to promise them something new in that moment. And for us that’s pleasure and sort of magic. Because if you’re just saying “moderate again” — I feel like they’re already doing that, so you’re losing them emotionally.

Adam: I’d love to just talk a little bit more about your background in branding and how it brought you to relaunch and reposition Botivo. It’s clear that the positioning sets it apart from the rest of the category — what are some of the executional points that you landed upon in that rebrand that help it stand out?

Imme: I think with any rebrand there are different stages. You sort of have to think about where you came from, what makes you different, where culture’s heading, your consumer, your product — there are so many different ways to think about it. And I think there are so many stories around Botivo that in a way the positioning almost wrote itself.

An interesting place to start is probably talking a bit about how the idea came about, because the product itself was born from hedonism — which is a very different world to be born from compared to other non-alcoholic spirits.

So Sam, my co-founder, has another business called Rum Runner where they create drinks for really high net worth private clients. He was handpicked to do the drinks for a royal wedding, he did Calvin Harris’s wedding, he did Kate Moss’s parties — these quite wild events. And Botivo was actually created initially to serve at those events, because people wanted something that had no flavourings, no preservatives, was really delicious and natural and amazing. And he made it for those events, and people kept coming up and saying “where do I buy this, it’s delicious.” He bottled it, and that’s when I tasted it.

But it launched in a sort of wine bottle and was quite serious, and I rebranded it after I tasted it. For me that’s a really interesting start point for a brand and brand positioning, because if you look at everyone else in the category and their kind of founder stories — it’s stuff like “I was sober so I realised there was nothing delicious out there” or “I was pregnant and I had nothing to drink.” And actually the Botivo founder story was basically —

Laura: “I was boozing.”

Imme: This was born out of hedonism and hedonistic parties. And actually this isn’t for people that don’t drink — 95% of our consumers drink alcohol as well.

So that was a great place to start from a brand positioning point of view. And the second part was that Sam was really trying to bring this artisanal maker ethos into the category, because he’s an artisan. The product itself is made in an extremely time-consuming and crafted way which doesn’t exist in the category. That was the second part of the brand positioning.

And for me that’s a big tension — the hedonism and sort of brashness of a party, but then the meticulousness and expertise of an artisan who makes it. That true craft process, real ingredients. That’s where the positioning came from — that tension between pleasure and craft and artisan.
And I think at the time — and actually still now — the category was divided into three key sections. One was sort of “flavoured fun” — playfulness but manufactured, almost like soft drinks. Or it was “mimic drinks” — manufactured and copying what else was out there. Or it was “health drink” — things that were crafty but very serious and worthy. And the big white space was that fourth quadrant — something that’s super playful and pleasurable but also super crafted, with real ingredients, meticulous in the way it’s made. And that’s where Botivo sits. And it still feels like a very wide open space.

Laura: And you’ve said that kind of manifests in every element of the brand. And one thing that seems to really stand out — as anyone looking at this on YouTube would see — is the visual appeal, and how every element… it’s definitely not a wine bottle look anymore. Can you speak a little bit about how that multisensory experience works — what you’re trying to create with all of those visual and sensory cues?

Imme: Yeah. So our brand positioning — we call ourselves “artisanal hedonists” internally. And so the whole brand was built around this idea of the vibe of a pleasure seeker but also the cues, almost semiotically, of an artisan and a craft maker who makes things with their hands.

There are characters on the label — there are actually 24 characters, though I think only nine or so are on the label. But there’s this amazing artist called Rosalind Bova who creates these incredible banquet scenes in her art. And these banquet scenes are the kind of scenes where when you look at them you just think “God, I wish I was at that party.” And that for me is something I was always drawn to — I wanted people to feel that way about our brand. I wanted them to feel like they were invited into this world which was kind of wild and hedonistic, which felt at odds with a non-alcoholic brand. But the hand-drawn illustration also added the artisanal element to that, so it felt like a really good fit.

And I guess the second thing was just — how do you make the whole experience, from the website and how you order it and the images on there, through to the unboxing experience when it arrives, through to the unravelling of the wax when you make the drink and cut the orange as part of the ritual — really thinking about how you make every single touchpoint of that journey feel magical and pleasurable and considered. Like something quite magical that’s unfolding before you. And for me that’s really what it was all about — how do you make this feel like a moment that is demarcated from the rest of your day, the way that alcoholic drinks do?

Laura: Yeah because I love what you’re describing there — because essentially what you’re looking at is a more modern version of “wine o’clock.” Taking that real “oh, you can have your Chardonnay now” but actually taking it into a much more fresh and interesting space that everyone’s included in. It feels much more modern and much more based on the experience rather than just “now I’m going to have the alcohol content as the reward.” It’s like it’s the whole sensory experience.

Imme: Exactly. And then we were very aware that we needed to create an occasion. The yellow is a huge part of our brand for many reasons, but we have a consumption moment called the Yellow Hour — which is very much what you just described. I think it’s really important to have a moment or consumption occasion that you own as a brand. The Yellow Hour is a play on the golden hour, and it’s the idea of — everyone knows that feeling when you’re with your mates and the sun’s coming down and you’re in the pub. Evoking that feeling in a drink is so powerful to me. So yeah, it’s exactly about owning that moment and that feeling in your day.

Laura: Love it.

Adam: I think that’s so interesting. It really does, once you get into it, stand out from what else is available. What challenges have you faced in telling this story of difference in this category?

Imme: So many challenges. I think there are a few things that are quite different about Botivo. One is it’s not a mimic product. When we launched a couple of years ago, the main discourse was very much — “oh but we have the data that shows this many people drink gin, and therefore a buyer would say we know that a non-alcoholic gin will sell, because we can extrapolate that 10% of these gin drinkers will drink a non-alcoholic gin.” But what they didn’t have — and still in many ways don’t have — is data showing that a completely new product with a unique flavour profile will sell.

And I think that’s the first challenge — when you launch a brand you have to not just convince consumers, you have to convince buyers. And buyers have jobs they want to keep, so they lean on data. If there’s no data and they’re not risk-takers, you have to convince them through other means.
The second thing is just — because it is a completely new taste profile, there’s no way to describe it really on the bottle. We say “bittersweet herbal citrus” but it’s not a non-alcoholic Aperol, it’s not a non-alcoholic anything — it’s a new category. And people want to know what they’re buying, particularly when it’s expensive. So you have to do a lot of liquid on lips, a lot of word of mouth. You have to really go out and make sure that taste makers and people that consumers really trust — Grace Dent, Alice Lascelles, the buyers from Berry Brothers — amplify what they say about it. To show to people: you might not understand what it tastes like, but these people have said it’s really delicious and they never lie.

And thirdly — because it is a really unusual liquid — things like the fact that it’s very very powerful. There are 20 serves in the bottle. We only put like 15% water in it, whereas most non-alcoholic spirits are about 95% water. What that means is you just need a little bit. And if people are already engaging with the category they’re used to pouring in loads of product. But our serves are half the strength of the competition. So if you don’t read the back of the bottle and pour it the way you would another drink, you don’t get a good taste experience because it’s just way too powerful.

So the main challenges are — how do you do something really different with consumers but know that they’re going to behave the way they do with the rest of the category? You have to educate them at every single point. No, don’t overpour. No, this doesn’t taste like that — this tastes completely unique. Actually you can drink it with booze because it’s really powerful even though that’s not something you do with other non-alcoholic drinks. There are so many different things we’re doing that require a lot of education, and that obviously takes time and money which startups don’t have. So that’s always our challenge basically.

Laura: You mentioned persuading buyers in a new way when you don’t have data, and the importance of storytelling. What kind of hooks have you found motivating to them?

Imme: A few things. We went into a lot of really prestige restaurants first — I think we’re in about 30 Michelin stars now. And a lot of those really prestige restaurants were places where buyers would go for dinner and they’d see us on the menu. So I think that was one key thing — just being seen in those forward-thinking cultural spaces where they’re looking for what’s next.

Second of all, once we had some data — like we were the best-selling spirit in Whole Foods — we could use that once we launched in there.

Thirdly, getting taste makers — I mentioned really focusing not on influencers who say all products are great, but on taste makers or curators where the industry knows they would never say something was good if it wasn’t. Alice Lascelles from the FT for example — she’s a drinks writer who’s quite harsh about stuff she doesn’t like and really great about stuff she loves, and she’s championed us from day one.

Laura: And Grace Dent — very much a person whose word is her bond. She’s not London-centric, she looks elsewhere. You can see that’s different from being an influencer.

Imme: Exactly, exactly. They both basically organically wrote about us. And Alice Lascelles said it was one of the best things she tasted that year — alcoholic or non-alcoholic. So those are obviously amazing quotes that we then took and put into our decks, shared with consumers on our website and in ads.
And then other things around buyers — doing really fun things at events where they were. So we were at the London Craft Beer Festival, we were at Taste, and we built a giant yellow piano that was a sampling bar — the same piano that’s on our label — and had performances where people could play the piano and had bands while we gave out samples. And actually a lot of buyers were at those events and were like “wow, this is quite a different way to activate, this brand has energy around it.” So it was trying to get their attention in different ways that weren’t just data-driven.

Laura: One of the things I really love about Botivo and about you on LinkedIn is that you’re as willing to acknowledge the things that have gone well as the things that have not gone so well. You know, obviously the big yellow piano is a great way to grab attention, and I think at one point you said we tried it with one retailer and nothing happened. Is there something about putting yourself out there that is part of your brand DNA? Or is it just something you feel you have to do as a startup? And owning those things that didn’t work sort of feels like it adds to your authenticity as a brand.

Imme: I think — my friends rinse me so hard about my LinkedIn persona. They’re always like “can we talk about your LinkedIn persona please, it’s so embarrassing.” And you know, it’s one of those things where when you start out as a founder you sort of see everyone talking on LinkedIn and you just think “God, they look like such a wanker.” And then you become a founder and you basically become that person.
There are lots of reasons for it — it’s a really great way for investors to discover you, it’s a free way to tell people about your brand. But I think before I became a founder, what annoyed me most was just lots of “pinch me” moments or really kind of humble brags, which obviously we all do. But I think what I tried to do is just be a bit more authentic on there, because I think it cuts through the noise a lot more.
So talking about the yellow piano thing — we actually took the big yellow piano for a day around about 12 Majestics and brought a singer to serenade them, and made a video of Sam and myself with Love Actually signs being like “please buyers, pay attention to us.” It was actually incredibly embarrassing, and we sent it out to the buyers expecting them to be blown away. And we got absolutely no response. We got ghosted.

So we thought “okay cool, that was a waste of money and also really cringe.” But then when we did launch in Majestic last month, I reposted it as a “you can get knocked down but we are now stocked there.” And that was kind of just to say to other founders — don’t worry about it. It is quite a depressing and disheartening world, the world of startups. You get a lot of kicks. So just trying to make other people realise that — look, I was pretty embarrassed, but you have to laugh at it.

And the other thing was just I do talk a bit about other struggles of being a founder. Because I know lots of people suffering from mental health issues who are founders, and I just think LinkedIn is quite an unhealthy place for people because they don’t see both sides of it. I think you have a responsibility as a founder to also talk about the lows as well as the highs. So I’ve spoken about grief, I’ve spoken about how hard it is being a working mum, I’ve spoken about how you become really boring when you’re a founder because your mates don’t want to hear about your boring business the whole time. And people do respond to it. Really from a place of “I want to read more of that.”

Laura: You’re carving out your own space again in that persona. Because what I’ve kind of observed is there are different tribes — certainly from founders and also from a working parents point of view. There are people like me that just never mention it — it’s almost like part of the conspiracy of silence — like everything’s fine, definitely don’t have a sick child in the background! And then it can also be the other way where it’s “it’s so hard” and you’re like “I feel heard but I don’t feel like the discourse is being augmented in any way.”

Whereas I think what’s really interesting about your tonality is quite often it’s like — “this is very difficult, and here I have two small people and a business to run, and here are some things that I personally find helpful — what else do you do?” Just a new lens on it where you go: this is the reality, it’s difficult and it’s enjoyable and it’s motivating — so how are we going to make it work? And I really love that as a space. I think good for you because it’s much more motivating.

Imme: And no, I do sort of try and be like “this is what I do, not that other people find it helpful.” But actually people write stuff back like “oh that’s great, I’m going to steal that.” So it’s one of those things — it starts off with you just trying to be honest and then actually you get quite a few tips back. So yeah, it’s been helpful.

Adam: Brilliant. You’ve obviously kicked off 2025 with a huge bang with the Waitrose listing. What else are you excited about in the future — where do you think this journey is going to take you?

Imme: We’ve got so many exciting launches and things in the pipeline which obviously I can’t share. But yeah — one of the things that just sold out over the weekend was we did a limited edition with Berry Brothers.

Adam: Is that the three year aged thing?

Imme: Yeah, so three years ago Sam, my co-founder, put British apple cider vinegar into Islay whisky barrels, and it’s been sitting in those barrels for three years and has taken on all the woody flavours. We created a limited edition product in partnership with Berry Brothers that sold out on our website within 48 hours. It was a kind of smoky, peaty, woody, bittersweet version of Botivo — a completely different taste profile. Almost like an after-dinner smoky version.

The reason I’m saying that is because these limited editions are a big part of what I’m excited about. We’ve got another one launching in May which is even bigger and even more exciting, which I can’t share yet. But it’s a real sort of career-defining moment for me.

A lot of the equity innovation that we want to show off is how we do small batch and all this cool stuff, but we also don’t want to lose sight of our iconic SKU. So these limited editions are a really good way for us to show off all the cool stuff we can do while maintaining the vision and focus on our core Botivo product. We’re also going into four more markets this year, and there’s just so much more work to be done in the UK, so that’s our focus.

Adam: Brilliant.

Laura: Can I just ask — how are you going to approach the dosing challenge? Because I don’t think I’ve seen any group so animated as a bunch of marketeers trying to come up with ideas for conquering dosing.

Imme: That was actually a really helpful conversation — another example of LinkedIn giving you ideas. And actually most of the ideas were stuff we’d been thinking about already, but it was interesting to hear other people say it because it meant they understood it as well.

So on our next label — on the back “drinks” section — it’s going to be called “double strength.” And the reason for that is rather than trying to explain “you need to do half as much,” actually people can see it’s double strength and they’re going to put in half as much automatically. So that’s the language we landed on.

Laura: And it still plays into your abundance positioning rather than the moderation thing.

Imme: Exactly — it ticked all the boxes in terms of brand but also clarity. So that’s what we’re going to be going down to solve that problem. We’ll see if it works.

Adam: Great. I really like the three-year-old Islay collaboration — because it’s saying we’re not just a non-alcoholic spirit here, we are ageing in old whisky barrels and taking on the flavour of whisky. Was that a conscious decision to continue to play that “yes we’re a non-alcoholic drink but we are 100% in this world of real drinks” positioning?

Imme: Yeah, exactly. Our whole belief is that where things are moving is people are becoming ABV-agnostic in a way — they’re looking for really unique, interesting taste experiences and the level of ABV is sort of irrelevant. So that was a very intentional play of: we are flavour and taste first, we’re not non-alcoholic first.

Adam: Yeah yeah. Breaking the category codes again. Yeah, I love it.

Laura: Thank you so much Imme, we love talking to you and getting a lot of inspiration to start the new year.

Adam: That was a really interesting talk, thank you very much.

Imme: Thank you!

Laura: Well what a way to brighten up a January — some really inspiring ideas and stories there.

Adam: Yeah, and you can really see Imme’s personality coming through in this product. What a fantastic person to be speaking to today.

Laura: Building on that point — I think one of the biggest strengths, and we talked about it a little bit in our intro but we really heard it from her as well, is she mentioned “obviously you have to start with your product and brand strengths and mutually build on those.” And it was funny because you said “and obviously you do” — and then I thought, yeah obviously you do, but how many brands can honestly say they do that? And it gets harder the bigger you get as a brand. You can get further and further away from “what is my actual product?” It’s not to say you have to be totally functional in your stories, but how do you deliver a holistic experience where the product is as integral as the ad or the packaging or the occasion that you set out in creating that experience? And I loved that she was just so completely integrated in that thinking. And I think it really stands out in the product.

Adam: Yeah I totally agree. I mean looking here at the bottle — the fact that it is effectively a picture of a massive party, and the fact that it started at weddings and was then bottled up because so many people asked about it. A great founder story that has led straight through into the product you see on shelf today.

Laura: What stood out for you?

Adam: I really liked what she had to say about communicating to buyers, because so often you think about consumers in all of this — you think about what consumers want, you do your consumer research. But I think they had a really interesting take on how to get the attention of and convince buyers.

Laura: Yeah, because you’re never going to reach the consumers unless you persuade the buyers first. And so all of that work around taste makers — the real taste makers, not just the influencers — Grace Dent, getting the stuff they’ve said amplified, all the way through to landing it in Michelin-starred restaurants. It all kind of ladders up to this idea that this is doing something slightly different and setting a new trend. But then also the fun activational stuff — like setting up a piano at a place where the buyers were going to be and grabbing attention. I think they’ve really thought quite strategically and carefully about who they’re selling to and how they’re going to do it. And for someone who works in marketing and sales, I was pretty inspired by some of the stuff she had to say.

I think the other big takeout I had — and it’s probably the thing that would slightly worry me if I worked at a very big established brand — was her point of view on being authentic. Which was very much a behaviour rather than a noun. And you kind of see that coming through in everything she’s doing.
And actually it’s probably an interesting space, because it’s where startups have a stronger and more resonant positioning for consumers. I wonder if you had a ban on just using the word “authentic” unless you could back it up with real behaviour — how many brands could actually say “well I do this — that’s authentic, I do that — that’s authentic”? And I think that is something that is really interesting, that small brands can own. And frankly it’s a kind of challenge to the people that set the category — you can use the word authentic as much as you like, but how are you actually taking it through from just “responsibly sourced ingredients” or whatever, and actually living it and breathing it in terms of everything you do?
So yeah, hopefully that’s going to propel them to an exciting future. See you next week.

Laura: See you next week.

Adam: Thanks for listening. If you’d love to hear more from marketers, entrepreneurs and business leaders about how to use the art of persuasion to drive your business forward, then make sure you’re following the podcast in your favourite podcast app. And just one last ask from us — this is a new podcast and we’d love it if you could be persuaded to help us spread the word by telling somebody else about it, leaving us a review, or even better sharing an episode on social media. Search The Forge on LinkedIn.