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“Brilliant leadership is acknowledging that you don’t have all the answers, and the answers can come from anywhere and anyone.”
In this episode of The Persuasion Game, Adam is once again joined by Eleanor Lloyd Malcolm, Forge’s Chief Growth Officer, to reflect further on the panel she hosted in Cannes about growth in transformative times.
This time the focus is on leadership. What does it actually take to lead a brand through transformation, and how are some of the world’s most ambitious marketing leaders showing up to do it?
We hear from three exceptional leaders: Kathryn Swallow, Head of OTC at Haleon, Nicole German, Global CMO, Corporate & Institutional Banking at HSBC, and friend of the podcast Nathalia Amadeu, Global Brand Director for Vaseline at Unilever.
They explore how the CMO role is evolving, how to go about building the marketing function’s credibility inside a business, and how surrendering control, and navigating ambiguity with confidence, can lead to exceptional results.
This is part two of The Persuasion Game’s Cannes special. If you haven’t heard part one yet, you can find it by searching for ‘The Persuasion Game’ wherever you get your podcasts.
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This is an 18Sixty production for Forge.
CHAPTERS:
(00:00) Introduction
(04:51) From CMO to CGO
(08:48) Authenticity Builds Trust
(15:52) Leading Through Change
(19:46) Female Leadership Reflections
Transcript
Kath: The big shift was more about making growth everyone’s job.
Nathalia: It’s really to create the conditions for the brands to be built by the people, not only by the organisation.
Nicole: The ambition for us was to be a strategic partner to the business, but I also think a real level of empathy
Adam: Welcome to The Persuasion Game, Forge’s podcast all about growing brands and influencing consumers in the modern age, brought to you by MSQ.
My name’s Adam Rowles. I’m the Marketing and Business Development Director for Forge, a consultancy that helps brands to grow in transformative times through future forecasting, dynamic demand spaces, growth in brand strategy, and innovation. Find out more at forgemsq.com. We’re in part two of our creating growth in transformative times.
This is about leadership in transformative times. I’m still joined by Elle in the studio, Forge’s Chief Growth Officer. Welcome, Elle.
Eleanor: Hello, Adam.
Adam: And we are continuing to talk about the panel that we hosted with growth leaders, including Nathalia Amadeu, the Global Brand Director of Vaseline at Unilever, Nicole German, the Chief Marketing Officer of Corporate and Institutional Banking at HSBC, and Kath Swallow, the Global Head of the OTC category at Haleon.
If you haven’t yet heard part one of this podcast, do listen to part one before joining this one because it does set the scene very well for this discussion. This discussion, we’re gonna be talking about several themes, including how the CMO role is changing, showing up with authenticity, and leading through change.
I mean, you posed this question to Nicole in the discussion, which was, you know, how is your role changing as CMO at HSBC? And this is what she had to say.
Nicole: The shift that we’ve really been able to make is really twofold. One is starting to have the conversation. The ambition for us was to be a strategic partner to the business, and that was in their eyes.
And so how do you articulate that? How do you kinda measure against that? So one is actually to actually educate, right, and to sort of have those conversations, but also to get them excited about the brand, right? I think by just sitting down with them, not on kind of, “This is what we’re gonna do. Here’s the plan.” Actually bringing them along through the journey of what are the problems that you wanna solve? What are their priorities? Coming back with actually, “Well, this is how we’re actually perceived in the market,” either by our clients directly or relative to competition. They sort of stand up and start looking at, oh, this is very interesting data. Let me understand more, right? So you’re engaging them, which I think starts to forge that sort of partnership. And then about the co-creation and the real involvement, not only with the business but also with their clients in that process has been really a game-changer for us.
Eleanor: Yeah, I mean, I personally loved this part of the discussion, and it was so brilliant to hear from Nicole first because I think, you know, obviously the marketing role within a financial services business like HSBC is quite different to some of those classic CPG businesses.
So she is on an education journey around the role of marketing, and it not being about emailers and events, but the role of the brand. And I think, whilst that might seem very obvious to people that are working in product-driven businesses, that’s less obvious in the service-driven world to all of those employees.
So really going on a journey of what is the role of brand. And again, it goes back to what we talked about in episode one of those fundamentals of how brand is gonna drive distinctiveness in a market of table stakes. You know, in the world of financial services, how do you really speak to customers in a way that’s relevant is, yes, okay, it’s about having the best products but it’s also about helping those customers understand the role that a brand like HSBC can play, and she’s really taking the business on that journey.
Adam: I just love what she was saying about when you take people that maybe aren’t fully immersed in marketing, like through the funnel and how awareness leads to consideration, which leads to, you know, purchase intent and the rest of it. They start leaning in and go, “Oh, okay, well, that’s how actually it’s gonna drop down into something in my world.”
So that kind of idea of relevance, again. We talk about relevance to consumers, but it’s like relevance for the organisation, relevance for the different stakeholders, I thought was just was really poignant.
Eleanor: Yeah, and I think what she expressed so brilliantly is speaking that industry’s language.
So, you know, very much drawing on the data and the impact that marketing can have as a growth driver versus just an enabler, which I think she kind of talked about so eloquently.
The role of the CMO is a fascinating topic and one we all care a lot about, and it’s lovely hearing what Nicole had to say.
I think what’s also we’re seeing in the industry is a shift from CMO roles to Chief Growth Officer roles. Sometimes you see them together. Sometimes we’re seeing one get dissolved. In the case of Haleon, they have done that. They have shifted from a CMO to a CGO. I think it’s really fascinating to hear Kath’s take on that and how actually marketing matters more than ever in that role, not less.
Kath: It’s an interesting one because you can imagine when that slight title changed, the amount of people that were coming to me going, “Oh, but you’ve been saying brands matter.” I’m like, they do. Now, you can argue should it be Chief Growth and brand or whatever, but the reality is everything is about growth. But what our assets, albeit we are stewarding them, are the products and the brands we sell, and that’s the only thing we have.
Yes, we’ve got science, but the science alone is, it’s inside the brands. So I think the big shift was more about, in a way, formalising that the category is here to drive growth. So the functional now is that there’s category lead as basically I’m responsible for the category end to end. So what’s happening in China or whatever. It’s not just a global, local. We actively took the word global out of our job titles, right? That was a big shift to say the categories are growth-driving engines. Then you have a capability build, which is the sort of insights marketing excellence. But it really was about almost unleashing the potential and making growth everyone’s job.
Eleanor: You know, what Kath was saying was it’s signalling marketing is all about growth. What we do with our brands is what’s going to drive the growth of a business like Haleon, and really puts that front and centre. You know, a business that was probably more focussed on the science and the innovation being the pure growth driver to going, it’s that plus the brand. And thinking about that holistically and how the business is therefore driving marketing excellence into that growth agenda, I thought was a really interesting take on how their business is thinking about it.
Adam: So Kath had a really interesting point on simplification, especially around how they are changing the category teams at Haleon.
Kath: To me, the idea of being one team with clarity of what we’re trying to do cuts through the organisation chain. So for example, how we’re setting up in… Basically, we’ve changed our organisation within Haleon. The way I see it is, so my role running the category, my team are brand leaders and operating unit leaders who have the P&L, right? One team.
We all have our vision. We set our vision, and off we go. And then together end to end we can execute with excellence. So we’re almost defining the big thing. So in the equivalent then of taking that more granular to a brand, being clear what that brand’s all about, and knowing where there’s nuances to play with, but as one team.
And I think cutting through a matrix with that, to me, is how to enable a lot of speed. The word global, local, I think honestly it causes more problems than it solves because people are like, “Am I here? Is your operating model now more global?” It’s like, no, it’s not. It’s just about the stuff we sell, right?
Category means the stuff we sell. It does not mean global. And if you think about it like that and build a culture of that, all of a sudden I think you can cut through and speed things up.
Eleanor: Yeah, I mean, you see it all the time of kind of these very large complex organisations being complicated by silos and different departments and teams. And I think it’s been a challenge forever of getting marketing and sales to work together and be on the same kind of growth agenda and the same north star. And I think that’s what this has done for Haleon is to really simplify that and actually go, “Everyone’s job is about growth And we need to work together on how we do that as one business, as one category, as, as one brand”, which I think is exciting.
Adam: And I thought what was really brilliantly revealing about the discussion is when we actually asked the panel in this environment, in this shifting environment where the CMO role is changing, or it’s changed to Chief Growth role, and organisations are changing, what does it take as a leader to show up and lead? And I thought Kath’s take on this was excellent.
Kath: Authenticity matters. And, if you think leadership overall has gone from a world of leaders having all the answers, like, let’s be honest, no one’s got all the answers. And actually, anyone that thinks they do or likes to pretend they do, I mean they don’t.
But being prepared to be authentic and open and just transparent about the journey we’re on, I think is so important. And marrying authenticity in a way with energy and passion, which to me is what I believe are really valuable. Because if you can bring that open, honest authenticity, people want to come on the journey because they get trust.
But, building trust through authenticity, being humble, and being open about I don’t have all the answers, but then creating the environment where the right answers can surface. I think that, for me, is the key to winning and to leadership in general.
Eleanor: What I loved about listening to all three speakers was, first of all, they were incredibly inspiring and kind of visionary But they also talked a lot about, you know, as Kath does there, about authenticity and that in this environment where the world is moving fast, you’re having to make confident decisions, Kath talks about not having all the answers and being open and transparent about that and kind of being very kind of iterative.
It’s, you know, the leadership style is collaborative. It’s taking people on a journey. It’s telling people when you don’t have all the answers, but let’s work through it together. For a leader like Kath, who’s come into a business like Haleon, which has got huge growth ambitions. She’s got to drive huge performance for that category. Hearing her talk about how she leads by being open, by being candid, being humble to other people’s ideas, but also still being that inspiring leader that sets a North Star, and getting that balance right, and I thought that was fantastic to hear.
Adam: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it really ties in nicely to the theme that Nathalia has been pulling through the discussion and where she talked about, I guess, turning up authentically with consumers as a brand, Vaseline, in the ways that consumers would be using your product in the real world.
She talks about the conditions to create that coming from within. So it’s really about leadership creating the kind of space for that to happen. Let’s listen to what she said about that.
Nathalia: I think the old traditional model used to reward answers, having answers, right? And I think I agree with Kath, the importance of really creating the conditions for the answers to emerge from our teams, the organisation, but also the partners, the communities, right? The answers come from everywhere.
And in this scenario that you share the power, that you share, you surrender control, I think it’s very important for the leader to really feel comfortable in navigating with some ambiguity, with some uncertainty, right? If you are really building your brand in the speed of culture, you need to understand, you need to embrace it will not always be perfectly polished. It’s so valuable.
Sometimes we fear, but at the same time, there’s so much value in that. People really, they don’t expect perfect brands. They appreciate human brands, brands that are relevant, brands that understand them, brands that they can trust, right? So I think in the same sense, there’s a bit of irony because at the same time that you need to move on with the sense of okay, there’s an ambiguity, you also need to move with confidence.
Adam: And I think this is such a really interesting shift for Unilever, which used to have quite tight control around its brands. To move from this idea that you can control everything and your brand is a kind of asset that you kind of own and, and manage to something which is almost disaggregated into not just the organisation, but also into your consumers.
And I think that really does take some brave leadership to kind of continue to push on that against maybe an organisation that hasn’t traditionally been that way. And I loved what Nathalia also had to say about curiosity and encouraging everyone in the organisation to deeply care about the communities that they serve.
Nathalia: We need to ensure we have a role. We need to ensure we know our role in culture, and that we respond to that, not to blend so that we protect our brands, right? But I think as we talk about the role of the leadership and the CMO in that sense, I think it’s really to create the conditions for the brands to be built by the people and not only by the organisation.
And I think this changes a lot. I think the leadership needs to be deeply connected to culture. Not as an observer, but as an active participant, to understand what people are doing in real life. It’s not just like on Instagram posts or on any report of research agencies, right?
Eleanor: I also think what’s interesting is when you’ve got brilliant leaders, they spent their careers having a strong opinion, needing to be kind of well-defined in their points of view, and it’s quite hard to sometimes let that behaviour go.
But what they were all talking about is brilliant leadership is that you don’t have all the answers, and the answers can come from anywhere and anyone, and kind of being open to that. But also, that only comes when you take time. You only hear answers from interesting places if you’re open, you’re curious, you’re spending time listening to your teams, to consumers, and that’s a really hard balance to get right in an environment if it’s moving very fast and you have to make fast decisions.
And so it was refreshing to hear, you know, how much Nathalia is kinda shifting her leadership to really draw out the best from her teams and not feel like she needs to have the answers to everything and make her team feel like that’s how the brand will grow. She’s there to steward and encourage and support, but that brilliant ideas can come from anywhere.
Adam: And so we had this brilliant panel, you know, over an hour, and we got to the end, and I thought I really, really enjoyed the kind of last question that we posed, which was how do you personally show up and lead through change? And we heard all about this transformation. We’ve heard about all these organisations that are constantly on the move, and here were the leaders kind of driving it.
To be fair, some of it sounded relatively relentless. So it was just great to hear their answer to how they’re showing up to lead through change.
Nicole: A couple things is authenticity, but sort of setting the expectation that change is gonna be the new normal always at pace.
So for me, it’s about, leading with that strong ambition, real clarity around what we’re focussed on, ensuring that they’re, you know, capable in terms of the resourcing and the tools, but also motivated, right? So understanding what’s gonna drive and motivate the teams to get energised behind it.
For me, personally, it is showing up with that energy and ambition. But I also think, you know, a real level of empathy, right? So really understanding how, how are things going from their perspective. Do they have what they need? Are they feeling a bit overwhelmed? So I think, too, we talk a lot across the bank at this notion of like high performance with care. So it’s a real balance between being ambitious and competitive and pushing the team to kind of, I always like to say, like, “Do you love it?” And if they’re like, especially on the big things that really matter, and if they’re like “I don’t really love it”.
Let’s keep working on it, right? And that’s okay, right? And then stuff you go like, “I don’t love it, but like, you know what? This one doesn’t matter. Let’s just go with it.” And I think that’s okay as well. So I think too it’s just… And I would just sort of say is being ever present. Like we’ve got, my team is distributed all over the world, right?
And so while you can’t physically be with them, and Zoom calls are really transactional, like it takes very few moments just to touch base through a Teams chat or whatever, those kind of check-ins at all layers and levels I thin just kinda drives a bit of a more of a less hierarchical kind of organisation, and the teams really appreciate that as well.
Eleanor: There’s three points in what Nicole says which I think is so true of what leadership needs to be today. You know, they all talked about real vision and real clarity, and actually it’s their role as leaders to drive that North Star consistently through the business. There’s a marketing job within the business of reminding people time and time again what you’re trying to achieve, what are the growth drivers, how is that gonna happen, and kind of embedding that belief through the teams that I think they talked about so well.
The other piece is what makes great leadership now is that ability to show up every day with energy, with enthusiasm, with passion, and be that force of dynamism and optimism because teams need to feed off that. It’s relentless for everyone, and people are working with less money, with less team, with less people, with less time.
And so it really requires, you know, a dynamic and inspiring leader to keep people going. And I think the third theme is all about empathy. And that’s that point we were talking about earlier about taking time. You know, there are moments where you move fast and you push through things, and there are moments where you need to pause and really listen and make sure you’ve got their perspective, that you’re seeing how they perceive things.
All three leaders are global leaders working across large global teams. And it’s not always possible. I think actually interesting, though, travel is back, and leaders are kinda back to getting on the ground, which I think is so important, those potent moments with teams to really understand who they are and what motivates them.
But also, how do you take teams on a journey digitally, and inspire them, you know, on formats like Teams? That is a real art.
Now, Adam, we didn’t set out to have an all-female panel, did we?
Adam: No. In fact, there was actually going to be a male panelist, who didn’t make it. So that is true.
Eleanor: Absolutely. So the brilliant, Mark Sands was not able to make it and would have joined us. However, we did end up with an all-female lineup, which was brilliant to be showcasing female leadership. But it also made me reflect on, actually, there are some incredible qualities of female leadership that I think are really fit for purpose for this era of transformation.
That quality of having a clear vision and kind of dynamic infectious energy, but also that empathy and that ability to kinda take time and kind of really listen to teams and connect people together and get people to operate as kind of one team and kinda motivate them from behind.
You know, a lot of what we heard was about not having all the answers but really elevating teams up, that balance of leading from the front and leading from behind, and it was inspiring to hear.
Adam: It was incredibly inspiring. I mean, I was sat on the front row taking notes at our own panel.
It was, it really was excellent. And, you know, all three of those leaders, very different in their own rights, leading in different, different ways, different styles, but all achieving incredible things. I mean, we created the panel Growth in Transformative Times to really explore a lot of the issues that our clients are coming to us with and finding people that talk to those challenges.
It’s clear from the panel and the reception we got from the audience that this really is a huge topic, and so we’ll be talking a lot more about this over the next few months.
It’s also incredibly important to us at Forge with the kinda briefs that we’re seeing and the client projects that we’re working on, it’s clear that having a very strong perspective on how to grow, how to lead, how to show up, how to take your business forward in this kind of age that we’re living through is kind of incredibly relevant to our clients right now.
Eleanor: Absolutely. No one’s world is not changing. The environment’s changing, the context, people’s categories, the consumer, to regulations, and particularly these big, large organisations really need help knowing what to focus on, where those priorities lie, and how to get after it with pace and confidence.
Adam: Yeah, and we’ll be doing a lot more on this topic over the coming months, so watch this space.
