The case for diversity in marketing

In this episode of The Persuasion Game, hosts Simon and Adam sit down with Julian Gomez, a marketing veteran, to discuss the crucial topic of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in marketing. They explore Julian’s wealth of experience with DEI marketing initiatives from his role as CMO for Unilever’s beauty and personal care brands across 40 markets in EMEA and ANZ.

They discuss the business case for representing diverse consumers, why DEI initiatives are under threat, and the challenges of leading a portfolio across diverse global markets. Packed with valuable insights and practical advice, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to better understand and implement DEI in their marketing efforts whilst avoiding the pitfalls.

Episodes are released bi-weekly. Follow us on LinkedIn for updates.

Subscribe to The Persuasion Game Newsletter on LinkedIn.

Want to know more about us? Visit our website here: thisistheforge.com

This is an 18Sixty production for The Forge.

The Persuasion Game is available on all your favourite podcast apps: https://link.chtbl.com/PersuasionGame

Transcript

Adam: This is the Persuasion Game, the Forge’s podcast all about the art of persuasion. Each episode we connect with marketers, business leaders and beyond to learn how they use persuasion to influence their customers, convince their stakeholders and drive their businesses forward.

Adam: Good morning Simon.

Simon: Good morning Adam

Simon: Yeah, how are you doing. Our first podcast together.

Adam: It is, yes. Very much looking forward to it.

Simon: Very much looking forward to it. So no Laura today unfortunately for our listeners, but I hope we can hold the fort. We don’t quite have her podcast voice expertise but we’ll do our best.

Adam: We’ll muddle through, won’t we Simon.

Simon: We’ll muddle through, perfect. And talking of muddling through — we are going to take on a big one today. We are going to be talking about DE&I, which is an enormous subject in marketing, right at the forefront of the culture wars. Very challenging conversations that are going on, and I think it has probably left a lot of marketeers sitting there thinking “how do I balance this and find the right way through?”

Adam: Yeah. And who better to share those thoughts with us than our guest today — who has been at one of the businesses at the forefront of DE&I initiatives, building that through their brands, and oversaw many of these brands through some of their most exciting growth phases.

Simon: Julian Gomez’s career in marketing has spanned continents, decades and hugely varied brands, but his particular specialism is beauty. During his 26 years at Unilever he led strategy and M&A for skincare globally, before acting as CMO across UK and Ireland, Europe Mainland, Middle East, Turkey and ANZ for its £1 billion portfolio of beauty brands. Having looked at this ever dynamic and expanding category from multiple different angles, he is the perfect person to explore this increasingly topical subject of ED&I with. Welcome Julian.

Julian: Hello, nice meeting you both.

Adam: We were just saying before the recording that despite the number of years — maybe even decades — that the Forge has worked with Unilever, we actually haven’t crossed paths personally. Have you met Julian?

Simon: No, we haven’t. But lovely to see you in person. Thank you for coming to join us today.

Julian: Lovely to see you in person. I’ve been working with other people in your team on really amazing projects for ourselves, like 10 years ago when we were trying to define the different personalities of the consumers in beauty, also how they were approaching naturals. So yeah, really happy to be here.

Simon: Brilliant. So Julian, let’s start by hearing a little bit about your most recent experience at Unilever.

Julian: Yeah. So as you’ve mentioned in your intro, I’ve been at Unilever for 26 years. I started in Spain, and during the last 10 I’ve been in global and regional teams — which for me has probably been one of the most amazing experiences because I’ve been exposed to many diverse realities.

If I think about my last experience, being the CMO for UK, Middle East, Turkey, Australia and New Zealand — that translated into 45 markets. So you can imagine the beautiful challenge that that meant. Not only internally — how to manage the conversations with the different teams in the different markets, how to make sure that everyone was moving from unsynchronised ways of working to synchronised ways of working — but also from a consumer perspective, the differences in terms of not just language but religion, culture and so on. So it was a very beautiful challenge.

Adam: Excellent. You’ve talked a bit about diversity there, and you know the diversity of those markets that you covered being key to your thinking around ED&I. Where did your ED&I awareness or journey start, and how did you kind of become more passionate about the subject?

Julian: ED&I — and specifically inclusivity — has always been very close to myself, to my heart, to my purpose, which is building yellow brick roads for everyone to achieve their ambitions. There’s an analogy here with The Wizard of Oz, or Wicked for the younger generations. I’ve always tried to make sure that I was listening to everyone — internally but also externally, the consumers.

But being in a global market first and then a regional market forced me — or gave me the opportunity — to tell different consumer stories, making sure I was understanding the diversity of consumers within every single market. And I just wanted to make sure that our brands were talking to them.
And I was lucky to be in a company that has always been very vocal around Unstereotyping — the consumers. Unstereotype is a marketing philosophy that’s at the core of everything we do at Unilever. Basically it’s about eradicating the stereotypes, especially when you are portraying consumers in marketing. We have always been guided somehow to average consumers, standardised consumers. And in reality you need to do just the contrary. You need to de-average, you need to understand the individual stories of your consumers. That’s the main principle of the Unstereotype philosophy — making sure that you eradicate the stereotypes and you portray the diversity of your consumers, independently from their gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion and any other criteria we normally use in marketing.
You might remember the Dove campaigns — representing or portraying different body shapes. That disrupted the industry. And at the end, Unstereotyping is not just about gender, sexuality, ethnicity — it’s about expressing different portrayals of consumers even if they are part of the same community. There’s not just one standardised woman — there are many different women depending on many different factors. So Dove started to show this in their stories, and other brands in other parts of the world like Sunsilk and Fair & Lovely started to do the same. So slowly all the brands are deep-diving in order to understand the range of stories they can tell, and they are starting to do so. That’s changing in terms of approach to consumer segmentation, but also the approach to communication — moving from stereotypes to Unstereotype communication.

Simon: And that’s fascinating, because I think often in these things when we think about Unstereotype, it’s very easy to jump straight to the execution — to the advert — and “oh, we need to show more people.” But you used an interesting word there: understanding. And it feels like this is key. This is not just about the end result, it’s about really deep consumer understanding.

Julian: 100%. Normally we see ED&I or Unstereotyping in advertising as an executional exercise. And in reality it should start as your most strategic step. As you said, you need to understand who your consumer is, or who you want your consumer to be, or who your consumer will be — not just next year but in five or ten years.

We’ve been trained in marketing to have the concept of the bullseye consumer. But for me that’s totally wrong — it’s the main mistake that we normally make. Bullseye means average, means standard. I really like the concept of the fly’s eye — don’t know if you can visualise the eyes of a fly — it has a lot of different eyes. That’s the reality of brands today. You need to understand how diverse, colourful and rich your target audience is and find a way to be able to engage, to have a conversation with each of them.
If you are always targeting the same audience, somehow you are not representing — not talking to — the rest of consumers. And that’s a pity, especially these days where consumers are exposed to advertising or communication in so many different channels. You can find a way to be there and have a conversation with them through social, for instance. Normally one of the barriers to Unstereotyping your communication — or moving from your traditional target audience to a more diverse one — is “well, I don’t have budget.” But in social it’s different. Through content creators you can target very specifically with whom you want to have the conversation. It’s not just about the big hero advertising — it’s about every single thing your brand will communicate to your consumers.

Adam: Are you able to share anything about the commercial outcomes of implementing this type of approach?

Julian: Sure. This is probably one of the key questions — what is the business case? Luckily now, thanks to the Unstereotype Alliance, we can measure this. And we have the evidence that being a brand that is representing its diverse consumer makes sense — not just in the long term, because there’s a lot of future-proofing your brand here, but also in the short term.

Data is saying that in the short term, brands that are Unstereotyping their communication are selling 3.46% more than brands that are not. In the long term that is even higher — inclusive brands are selling 16 to 26% more than brands that are not inclusive. They have a higher likelihood of being the first choice of the consumer — up to 62% higher than brands that are not inclusive. They also have higher price power — up to 54% higher than brands that are not inclusive. And they are even having higher chances of having a stronger loyal consumer — up to 15% more.

So all this data that can maybe sound less relevant compared with sales figures are actually the most relevant ones, because these are the ones that are helping you to understand that your brand is going to probably be stronger in the future.

Simon: Given the incredibly powerful data that you’ve just given, which would seem to be an incredibly conclusive case as to why businesses should want to do this — why are we seeing some of the world’s biggest companies at least publicly make statements pulling back from it?

Julian: We see different forces impacting and even destroying everything that was built in the most recent years, especially in terms of ED&I — not just from a communication perspective but also from an internal policy perspective. And as you said, there are some big corporations that are killing this.
However, I think that we are lucky that other big corporations are making bold statements. But I also think there’s probably an opportunity for all of us to make sure that we keep filling this grass — with probably more of a personal involvement in everything related with ED&I. Until now in most of the companies it was about policies that you just needed to follow. Now it’s up to you to make a choice. Now it’s probably your moral obligation — if you think that this is the right thing to do — to do so.
And especially from a marketeer perspective — you can be a purposeful marketeer. And not even just purposeful — I’m not sure if that’s the right expression — but a good marketeer. Because at the end, ED&I, diversity and inclusivity when representing your consumer — it’s just the right thing to do. If you have different ethnicities of consumers in your target audience, why not portray them? If you have consumers that are part of the LGBTQ+ community, why not represent them in your communication? Why not talk directly to them through social? So it’s not about being even purposeful — it’s about being a good marketeer, recognising who your audiences are and then doing the right job to engage with them.

Adam: And I guess in a category like beauty that’s even more relevant.

Julian: Beauty is a beautiful category, because at the end it’s not about just satisfying the consumer needs from a functional perspective — it’s also about satisfying the emotional needs they might have. When you think about beauty, we’re talking about face care, makeup, hair care, shampoos. Consumers decide the way they want to show themselves to others, and beauty will help them achieve that. So that’s why it’s very personal, it’s very emotional. And for them to be able to have a nearly one-to-one conversation with the brand — it’s critical. Because then they will feel part of that brand community. They will feel the brand is not just satisfying the functional needs but also the emotional needs. And from a marketing perspective, you really need to balance very well the two roles — the logic and the magic, the rationality and the emotionality, System 1 and System 2.

Adam: You mentioned the importance of creators in connecting with different audiences. I’m just interested — how important do you think they are for ED&I as an approach, or is it just something that’s part of the beauty industry? Do you think in other categories brands should be looking to creators to help create that connection?

Julian: 100%. I think in the case of beauty it’s a bit more evident because of what we just mentioned about the need for this kind of one-to-one conversation. But in every single category, consumers are looking for expertise, for recommendation, for trusted input. And I think influencers and content creators can do that job. For any brand in any category, doing the right job in selecting the influencers or content creators you’re going to work with is critical. It’s not a script that they will just repeat — they already have their brands. And within their brands, whether they are inclusive or not inclusive, that’s already there. So you need to be carefully selecting and casting the influencers, because you need to see them as an extension of your brand — an extension of your marketing team. They will be the ones having the conversation on behalf of your brand with the consumers.

Adam: You’re almost democratising it and handing it over and seeing what comes out of it.

Julian: Totally. And you need to do a big “letting go” exercise. If you really want to be inclusive, you need to work not only with inclusive influencers or content creators — you need to make sure that your team of content creators is also mirroring your target audience.

Simon: So Julian — we’ve talked a little bit about the changing political and macro landscape that you’ve seen. And as you’ve rightly said, there’s a very compelling argument and it’s incumbent on us as marketeers to step up and do the right thing. There is of course a second dimension that is occurring, which is that there is increasingly some data suggesting that some mainstream groups are starting to feel marginalized by DE&I — and in particular we hear about young men feeling that DE&I is not just irrelevant to them but almost a challenge to them.

Julian: This specific group is basically repeating what they are hearing from big opinion leaders — truth or not. This is a sentiment that needs to be addressed. The second comment is that from a brand perspective — same as we were debating before — you need to look at your data, you need to understand who your target audience is or who you want it to be, what’s the role of this specific segment. And then you need to understand if probably you have been shifting to the extreme and you have forgotten to portray stories of male consumers. Maybe — I don’t know — this is an exercise that everyone might need to do. And if you have done so, well, probably it’s the right moment for you to balance.

It’s more about the political conversation rather than the advertising issue. But again, everything goes back to deep-diving, understanding your audiences, defining what your strategy is, and having a look at your track record of the recent years — whether you have been engaging or not engaging with that specific target audience.

Simon: One of the things that really strikes me is — consistently through this conversation you haven’t said “audience,” you’ve said “audiences.” We go back to this bullseye versus the fly’s eye, and this fact that actually brands have multiple different audiences. And it strikes me that one of the big things you’re advocating is an “and” not an “or” strategy. It’s about how do we reflect everyone who is relevant to us as an audience, and if we do that properly then we won’t alienate audiences.

Julian: Yep. You are right. I’m always trying to make sure that we don’t speak only with just one standard consumer profile. Of course you can always aim — and this is something I’m always repeating as well — to engage with your attitudinal target audience, which is different from your socio-demographical target audience. But at the end you need to consider both, because even the attitude is expressed in a very different way depending on your socio-demographical segmentation.

Adam: So a real challenge throughout the marketing funnel — for the insight and market research world, how do we get that granularity of actually understanding our audiences, not our audience? Then to your communication and execution — how are we making sure we’re tailoring those messages? And then of course to the media, making sure we’re targeting the right people with the right message. So a real consistent view to that end. Then Julian — who do you think is doing this well?

Julian: McCain, right? That’s an example which is a case I loved. Because I think that they’ve been doing the right job consistently across the years, across different audiences, and focusing on the product — which is what unites us around the table. It doesn’t matter where you are coming from or who you are. So this is for me probably the best example of a brand that is inclusive at its core. Because it’s not evident from a functional need perspective — it’s more emotional. And they are making that bold statement. So I think this is probably one of the best examples.

Adam: And I think their most recent advert is this wonderful kind of snapshot of kitchens across the country, all trying to get food on the table at the same time. We’ll stick that in the show notes.

Simon: It also strikes me that — going back to the point earlier — who can be alienated by that message? Because it’s not saying “this isn’t for you” — it’s showing the sheer breadth of who they are talking to.

Julian: 100%. And I think the specific case of McCain — the execution is just amazing. But everyone can get there. It’s about reviewing your brand strategy, reviewing your proposition, your purpose and your target audiences. Then once you’ve done this, there’s a journey to get it right for your brand.
Also let me just highlight another example that’s probably a bit more easy because it’s in the beauty space. In beauty it’s kind of per se a very inclusive category — a very diverse category. But from time to time you have amazing successes and brands that are disrupting the dynamics of the category. And this is probably a slightly older example already — the Fenty launch. The Rihanna Beauty brand did an amazing job in making sure that every single consumer — from the richest melanin ethnicities to the clearest — had a specific shade for their skin, independently of how brown, how black, how dark, how clear they were. So that’s giving a specific, near-personal solution for every single consumer. And that’s also a big bold statement. And in this case what I love is that the brand is not just purposeful — the product is the purpose.

Simon: That’s great. One example in Fenty where product is absolutely integral to that — McCain, actually a universal product — so great showing that breadth. I think the industry has come a long way in the last 15 years.

Adam: You were looking after brands across 45 different markets — I know that different brands would be in different markets. How do you as a CMO in a large organisation with that kind of range of different markets manage the level of receptiveness to some of the DE&I approaches you’re talking about?

Julian: You need to be careful. Because what you do with one brand in one market these days is probably going to be seen everywhere. And if you run a campaign portraying a member of the LGBTQ+ community in the UK — which is the right thing to do, depending on the objectives and the target audiences of your brand — this can create a bit of a backlash in other parts of the world. For instance in the Middle East.

So there’s always a bit of a challenge in the execution of your strategies that you need to be aware of. You need to also be conscious that you might suffer a backlash, but you need to have a plan to manage that conversation if needed. Not even just with consumers but also even with customers who might tell you “well, I’m not supporting your brand anymore because I’ve seen that in the UK you are communicating this and this is not aligned with our religion or our culture.”

So you need to be first very aware about the differences, conscious about the risks that moving in a certain direction will create in certain markets, and you need to have the contingency plans. But if you think it’s the right thing to do, you just need to do it. But you still need to be very very mindful of the differences, how to address them and the risks of being pro-inclusivity.

Adam : Absolutely. And Julian, this also isn’t just about what’s produced — diversity is also about fostering a stronger internal culture. What are your thoughts on that?

Julian: Yeah, totally. At the end — not only because it’s my belief and the belief of many, but also because this is part of the Unstereotype philosophy that we were discussing earlier — inclusivity starts within. You need to make sure that in your teams — marketing teams and across all the different functions, and even external teams like the agencies that you work with — they are a fair representation of your audiences. Ideally you need to mirror in your teams your audiences, because only then will you have the sensitivity to have certain specific conversations.

So that’s why I think it’s critical making sure that you have the diverse representation within your team that you need in order to have the right conversations with your audiences. But also — fostering in this space of ED&I, making sure that everyone can share their point of view. If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community and you think that your plan is not doing the right thing, you need to say so. If you are part of the Muslim community and your plan is not landing the right message at the right time, you need to do so. Because also a lot of us have a lot of unconscious bias. So I would say it’s not only right from a representation perspective, it’s also right from a credibility perspective —

Simon: and avoiding some of those mistakes that brands have made in the past, perhaps not deliberately but clumsily.

Julian: Yeah, I’m always saying the same thing. I really love brands making an effort even if they fail, because at least that means they are trying. Of course when you see that they are doing it in a very profit-oriented or very temporary-oriented way, you can feel that something’s not right. If you are just celebrating Pride during Pride — well, you’re pinkwashing a bit. If you are just saying “Happy Ramadan” during the Ramadan period to your Muslim consumers — it’s not enough. Of course you need to do that, but not only that. You need to have a continuous conversation with your target audience.

Simon: Fantastic. Julian, thank you so much for joining us today on the Persuasion Game. Fabulous insights, lots for our listeners to reflect on and think about as they continue to pursue their DE&I journey. So thank you so much for joining us.

Julian: Thank you for having me.

Adam: Thank you so much.

Julian: Thank you so much.

Adam: So Simon — what a brilliant and fascinating guest we had today.

Simon: Absolutely brilliant. Loved that conversation — super candid, super honest, really really insightful.

I think the big thing for me that I’m taking away — I loved Julian’s analogy of the fly’s eye versus the bullseye. The idea of an audience versus audiences. And I think that is so important to take away — that this is about the richness, the contextual nuance of all of the potential different audiences that brands have. And making sure that that starts with your insight, your research, to really get clarity over who they are, to understand what matters to them, how to communicate to them through your execution and your media.

Adam: Yeah. It’s one of those things — it’s given itself a lightning rod for the culture wars, as we’ve kind of discussed in the interview. But if you think about it, it’s just common sense that if you want to increase the penetration of your brand you need to find more users that want to buy you, and to do that you need to understand their needs and communicate to them in an authentic way.

Simon: I couldn’t agree more. It’s not being binary — it’s not “because we’re reflecting one person that means we’re alienating someone else.” It’s about opening the door to everyone who could be relevant. And who would have thought, Adam, that a bit of nuance rather than binary might be the answer to these things?

Adam: You know, if you have one big message, one size fits all to your entire audience, you’re obviously not going to connect as well as you possibly can. But yeah — everything that he was saying around the opportunities that digital and performance marketing provide can really help with this.

Simon: Totally. I can hear Mark Ritson screaming. Bothism, bothism at us very loudly.

Adam: See you next week.

Simon: See you then.

Adam: Thanks for listening. If you’d love to hear more from marketers, entrepreneurs and business leaders about how to use the art of persuasion to drive your business forward, then make sure you’re following the podcast in your favourite podcast app. And just one last ask from us — this is a new podcast and we’d love it if you could be persuaded to help us spread the word by telling somebody else about it, leaving us a review, or even better sharing an episode on social media. Search The Forge on LinkedIn.