Guest
Sarah Horowitz, Marketing Director UK & N. Europe, Crayola
Related Podcasts
“The biggest thing that children show me is that there are no limits to what we can do.”
In this episode of The Persuasion Game podcast, we’re taking inspiration from the creativity of children.
Our guest is Sarah Horowitz, Marketing Director for the UK and Northern Europe at Crayola.
Crayola is an incredibly well-established brand, and has been relevant in homes and schools for more than a century.
We discuss how it’s maintaining and growing that position in a fast-changing world, how it puts creativity at the centre of everything it does, and the lessons all marketers can learn from the way children use its products.
Episodes are released bi-weekly. Follow us on LinkedIn for updates.
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Want to know more about us? Visit our website here: https://forgemsq.com
This is an 18Sixty production for Forge and MSQ.
CHAPTERS:
(00:00) Introduction
(03:21) The Role of Adults in Children’s Creativity
(10:42) Understanding Gen Z and Gen Alpha
(16:51) Creativity Across All Ages
(26:23) Embracing a Child’s Perspective
Transcript
Sarah: The biggest thing that children show me is that there are no limits to what we can do, and that anything is possible. They often ask why, and I love that idea of there’s no limits to it. Our brains can be so expansive. You can connect certain pieces together of the jigsaw just through asking a why question.
Adam: Welcome to The Persuasion Game. The Forge’s podcast about growing brands and influencing consumers in the modern age. Hello, Laura.
Laura: Hi, how are you?
Adam: I’m brilliant actually, just got back from my holiday.
Laura: Welcome back!
Adam: And I had a very relevant experience for today’s conversation. I spent at least three hours on the way there and back trying to entertain a three-year-old in an airline seat with every creative trick at my disposal.
Laura: There is no greater challenge.
Adam: And it’s relevant for today’s conversation because who have we got?
Laura: We’ve got Sarah Horowitz, who is the Marketing Director for Northern Europe and the UK for Crayola.
Adam: Absolutely brilliant.
Laura: Absolutely. I suppose you got through a few Crayolas on the flight.
Adam: Well, I think I’ve got the whole set. Completed the lot.
Laura: Yeah, see if you can ask for some freebies at the end.
Adam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let’s get into it!
Welcome, Sarah. So good to have you here today.
Sarah: Thank you for having me.
Adam: I’ve actually been really looking forward to this because I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old, and my three-year-old is just starting to get into play and creativity and Crayola and she’ll bounce wildly from playing with crayons to doing some dress up to jigsaw puzzles.
So the first question I have is, how do you define the category that Crayola currently sits in when I don’t think children see categories in that kind of way?
Sarah: So that’s a great question. And at Crayola we talk about all of them as being creative moments because ultimately what we define creativity as at Crayola is imagination into action.
So that kind of gives you that breadth of idea as to how big the category is that we are talking about. But on a holistic level, the category we define ourselves as sitting in is the creative arts experiences. And in the UK that’s a category that’s worth over 1.2 billion pounds. And it’s growing really, really fast.
And when we have a look at the direction of travel between now and 2030 across total EMEA, we think by 2030 that category is gonna be worth 2.2 billion Euros. So there is a massive amount of growth there. There’s lots of different fragmentations underneath it. And ultimately, there’s so many different ways to be creative.
Adam: And obviously there’s the child having a creative moment and sitting by themselves or doing something where they’re engrossed. But I also love the idea of like maybe the adults and the children having a creative moment together. How much thinking goes into the creating those adult child dynamics in the portfolio?
Sarah: A lot of thought goes into that. I think everything we look at is, could the child have it by themselves or with a group of friends? Or could they do it together, but also what’s the benefit of the parents or the caregivers or the teachers kind of having that moment together with children? And just enabling the children to think freely, to actively encourage that. That’s why we talk about, for example, creative moments can take place anywhere at any time. So give various examples like dress up, baking, all of those are creative moments and they create memories and experiences together, which are so important for both sides, for the children and the adults that they’re with at the same time.
Adam: So I’d love to hear more about Crayola as a brand and how you are currently positioning it and what it means to your audiences.
Sarah: Crayola is a global company. It’s been around for over 120 years as a brand. The thing that I love about Crayola is that it’s committed to nurturing creativity. And I think the really important thing is that you can’t ever use up creativity.
The more you use, the more you have, which is just such a lovely thought to have that creativity is limitless
Adam: And you weren’t always in this world or category. Could you give us a little bit of a background as to how you came into working for Crayola and what you were doing before?
Sarah: Yeah, of course. So I’ve come from more of a traditional CPG, FMCG background, so I started my career early doors a while ago. I’m getting a bit older now. I started working at Ferrero in a marketing role, and then I moved over to United Biscuits, now known as pladis. And then I went to Kimberly-Clark. I worked across the diaper portfolio, so baby and childcare.
And then I looked after the innovation in the UK. And then the last role was kind of more of the innovation globally. So innovation and creativity has always been there in that for me. And when I had the opportunity to go and work at Crayola. Thinking about the job that needed to be done, plus the opportunity to just be even more creative, a proper license every day to be creative, it felt like a no brainer to be able to go and do that.
Adam: So Sarah, really interested that you moved from FMCG into this new world. I guess I’m interested in what you found most challenging in that shift.
Sarah: First of all, I’m still only six months in, so I’m still absolutely learning. I think the interesting thing is we’re viewing this category like FMCG as well, so whilst it sits traditionally under kind of more general merchandise, actually there’s a couple of ways to be able to come at it that make you think that it still is quite FMCG like.
So the role of innovation is super critical in this category, and the amount of innovation that you need is high. We talk about share of media and share of voice as well. So again, traditionally, you know, we need to be approaching this from how we can still connect with our consumers. And you think about the different channels in, in terms of where consumers can actually buy our products and the grocery retailers are still super important for this channel as well.
So I think there’s a lot of FMCG behaviour here. Probably one of the challenges that I have been thinking about is I’ve come from a world where it’s fewer, bigger, better in terms of innovation. And actually the category norms in here are lots and lots and lots of innovation. And it’s about, I think, trying to find the balance of…
Adam: Interesting.
Sarah: … creating new sub-brands, creating platforms that stick.
Laura: Yes.
Sarah: Versus the churn of constant renovation that’s needed, because we know children are constantly looking for new things as well.
Laura: Yeah, that’s so interesting because I think parents, certainly in the shopping aisle, in an FMCG environment, we’re often buying from a very benefit oriented position. So you might go like, this colouring book looks nice because it’s got this character, or this one’s less messy, or, you know? And actually perhaps getting that stickiness of going and it comes from the brand that is all about active creativity is perhaps a harder leap to get through it.
It’s not that it doesn’t matter, it’s just that the consumer is perhaps coming in with a slightly more passive relationship with the brand and more active relationship with the product, perhaps.
Sarah: Yeah, I think that’s a really good way of thinking about it. And I think the other thing is, you know, as parents thinking about different play patterns for their children as well.
Laura: Yes.
Sarah: So there are so many different need states that can be addressed under this overarching category as well. Passive play, active play, different types of play that you have under there different times of the day. And I think recently someone said to me, it’s always a child’s birthday.
Which again, thinking about different categories that I’ve worked in, you know, you might have a regular cadence as to how often do you buy your toilet paper. You buy it when the toilet papers run out, or you buy diapers when you’ve only got a couple left and you know that they’re going to run out, et cetera. But this is, you know, it’s always going to be someone at school’s birthday that you might or you’re always going to get to the end of the week and you might want to treat your child and have some pocket money treats.
Laura: A hundred percent. Don’t let the kids find out where that drawer is though, that is hiding nothing
Sarah: So there are so many multiple occasions that you can buy into this category as well which is amazing. You’ve got everything from pocket money purchases right through to Christmas presents even that you’ve got the big purchases, the small purchases underneath there so the breadth of this category is huge.
Adam: To what extent is there a pull through from the young people or children to the products themselves? In the run up to Christmas, there’s always that toy that someone advertises and every child is asking for it on their Christmas list. Is there the same kind of pull power in your category with the stuff that you are selling to the actual children themselves?
Or is it always gatekeeper through parents and educators and stuff that they provide?
Sarah: I think still within this category it’s a bit of both. So for example, if you take our Crayola Colour Wonder Magic Light Brush Set it’s one of the top three skews in Smiths that’s come from children going in, trying it. It’s come from word of mouth.
Adam: It’s come from playing with their friends one.
Sarah: Exactly! And I also think that everything from a Crayola perspective is we talk about chemotronics being at the heart of what makes it different. So you’ve got the chemicals, you’ve got the mechanical side to it, and then the electronic parts.
Laura: Oh, brilliant.
Sarah:So we’ve got such a broad portfolio that we have some that sits in more kind of like core arts and crafts right through to the more toyetic perspective as well.
So we do get that desire comes through as well.
Adam: Yeah.
Sarah: The awe, the delight because you’ve got this magic source in there. Of these three things coming together.
Laura: It’s so funny hearing all of this because it’s like children have no brand loyalty at all. Of course they don’t because they haven’t been programmed like us to find…you know, it must be really freeing to be like, actually, it really pressures your innovation to be the most appealing, most relevant thing it can possibly be.
Adam: Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. Which I suppose then to your question Adam, it’s back to the FMCG world of how do you drive, cut through, how do you drive standout, how do you drive distinctiveness?
All of those things that are still true. So, yeah, I still look at this world that I’m in as FMCG. We have such an amazing opportunity for Crayola in the UK at the moment. It’s a brand that has so much love and awareness. So the brand has over 83% brand awareness, but we’ve actually not activated it really in the last 20 years.
We’ve got a lot that we can learn for how the brand shows up in the US and now the job to be done is to make it meaningful, salient in the UK for the next 25 years and beyond.
Laura: A huge amount of that is gonna be about driving relevance for parents and children today, and that’s one of the reasons we’re so interested to talk to you because this is actually gonna be a time where Gen Z and Gen Alpha needs are different.
You know, they’re growing up in a very different environment than we have. What would you say characterises some of the key differences in childhood today?
Sarah: So it’s really interesting. I think actually at a real helicopter level, the key developmental milestones of children from today versus 30 years ago versus 50 years ago, haven’t changed.
I think it’s more the tools that they have accessible to them. So Gen Z is really interesting and they’ve grown up alongside digital, so it’s always been part of what they’ve been doing, but the evolution within the digital space has evolved hugely. Gen Alpha is scary. I think some of the facts at the moment is for Gen Alpha, by the age of seven, they’ve spent an entire year of their life watching screen media.
Adam: No. No.
Sarah: It was a fact I saw last week.
Laura: I can believe it for my son. I don’t want to, but…
Sarah: The attention span of a Gen Alpha is 37% shorter than that of Gen Z and 58% shorter than a millennial. So, whilst their developmental milestones aren’t different, I think how we communicate and how we attract those children is going to be really, really important because clearly they’ve got less attention span. They’re used to screen times.
So I think it’s how can we incorporate all of that into the way that we talk to parents and talk to those children? Because the other thing is the parents of those children have got less time as well. Often they’re busy working parents. Nine out of ten parents know that creativity is really important for children, but their biggest barrier is the fear of getting it wrong.
Or the fear of it not turning out how they thought it was going to be. They’ve got an idea in the head of what a creative moment should look like.
Adam: Well, this is the parents fearing getting it wrong?
Sarah: Yeah, getting it wrong. There’s often a lot of messy play that’s involved so parents hold back from it.
I think one of the things that we are really trying to actively encourage in Crayola is that a creative moment can be any place anytime, and you can incorporate them into your day. So even things such as like sitting in the car and making up songs on the way to school for example, that’s a creative moment.
And also all of our products are washable as well. So ultra washable, that means that they can be kind of completely washed out. So we’re trying to give parents that reassurance. We’re trying to bring product to them that gives them satisfaction and happiness of being able to use at any time.
And at the same time really tapping into what children are needing and wanting today.
Laura: Was it Crayola that did the mess free colouring?
Sarah: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. Thank you for your service. I think that has been such a game changer when you’re staying over with a friend that has a slightly nicer house decor than you or grandparents like the mess free pens were like an absolute lifesaver.
Sarah: Yes. Mess free sits under our Colour Wonder portfolio.
Laura: Yes.
Sarah: So Magic Light Brush sits under there, and then we have the pens that is truly magical.
Laura: Incredible.
Sarah: Like truly magical that the pens only activate when they’re on the paper. And one day someone in R&D will tell me how it actually works.
Laura: Yeah. Just a quick question on that one, because as you said, R&D have come up with these amazing technologies, and then you’ve got these fabulous inventions from a marketing perspective, is there a kind of secret source in terms of how R&D and marketing work together?
Sarah: Oh, our R&D team based in the US are absolutely amazing.
So they are split into kind of the R&D team for now and then, then we’ve also got a whole team that are looking at the future trends and how they can start innovating against that space as well.
Laura: Amazing.
Sarah: My experiences in life is that R&D team and marketing have to work so closely together. The R&D team need to understand the direction of travel of where you’re trying to take the brand and the brand team able to pull that through to the R&D team so that they can start saying, right, this is how we’re gonna be able to innovate against that space as well.
So the team works so closely together. We have multiple meetings a week, a month, as part of the governance and where we sit and we’re constantly communicating. So we wouldn’t be able to do what we could do without the R&D team. So yeah, they are amazing.
Laura: It’s fascinating, really. Obviously what you are delivering is amazing on a product level. And then there’s also a kind of reframe from a positioning perspective, which is, I suppose it’s a bit like Nike when they were saying, if you’ve got a body and you move it, you are an athlete, as you say, trying to make people reframe perhaps something that’s felt quite onerous or time consuming or challenging.
Sarah: Yeah. We really talk about these things called like little Cs. So little Cs of creativity. So those five minutes, those 10 minutes where you can have a creative moment, because there are so many studies that show that having moments of creativity they lead to, so for young children, they lead to more confidence as they grow up. Helps them succeed from an educational perspective, just brings them joy.
Laura: Of course, it’s actually quite challenging these days because AI can make everything look so perfect and even our children are gonna be very adept at making things that look absolutely perfect. But that isn’t how you are defining creativity, is it?
Sarah: Yeah. I think the really important thing about creativity is that ability to be able to make mistakes or what adults we put on it, in terms of mistakes, redo colour in again. There isn’t such a thing as perfect in terms of creativity. There’s no spectrum of this is right and this is wrong. If you just think about a child will colour in a dog as purple. For them, that is how they see the world, which is such a different lens to how we might put, as adults, eyes on it.
So yeah, we just want to encourage children to be able to have as many of those creative moments in a day as possible, whatever they look like to them and their family.
Laura: And whether that’s empowering the parents with, here’s some ideas and they’re gonna be manageable. Or actually just letting the kids be and be comfortable with that.
Sarah: Yeah, agree. And I think the other piece that we talk about that’s really important is creativity happening at school as well. So our brand mission is about helping parents and educators raise creatively alive children. And the educators part is so important as well for children, especially in their primary years, to have experiences at school where creativity is at the heart of everything.
And it is incredible because the government are changing the focus that they put on creativity in the curriculum as well, and the moment they’re holding it now to equal status as the humanities and literature as well, which I think was a change that happened in November, 2025. So we are really happy to see that.
Adam: And I think if you kind of listen to what’s going on in the marketing world at the moment and how there’s this flattening of knowledge and creativity through things like AI and the digital world, all I’m hearing is, is that creativity’s gonna become the thing that actually can help you cut through and make a difference and is going to be one of those skills that is all the more important going forward.
Sarah: Absolutely. We have so much research to show that from early years through to adults, that creativity is such an enabler of so many different skill sets. There’s even research that shows recently that the more creative you are, it helps in terms of the ageing and holding back dementia as well. So you’ve got everything through to the importance of creativity in young children in terms of unlocking them as being future leaders of the world and kind of joy, connectivity, being able to communicate right through to older audiences as well and how creativity is so important for them in terms of keeping them young. And we know longevity is the big word as well at the moment.
Adam: Is there an age that you see this kind of progressing through to? I know you mentioned the primary as being so important. Like where do you see this pro creativity element where you can play the biggest role, I guess ending?
Sarah: So we start to see a bit of a tail off at about age nine. At that age, children are looking at and feeling creativity in a very different way. So we don’t see that they want to sit down and do colouring as much and some of those creative tools that they might have used when they were slightly younger.
So what we are trying to talk about is that parents at that point have a real juncture to play. It’s do I start investing in different hobbies that my child might be interested in? I think what we are trying to say is that creativity is, if we go back to this imagination in action, you never lose that imagination. And after the age of nine, you might just want to be able to express it in a different way. So whilst we do see the majority of the sales coming through from Crayola and children under nine we continue to innovate and think about our portfolio so that we can continue to keep those children or young adults or tweens, or however they’d like to be defined, as a sense of belonging into our Crayola community past the age of nine.
Laura: Often it gets to a point where it’s about curiosity, isn’t it? And being keen to explore things. And it’s not surprising to hear what you had to say about the government because asking the right questions is probably going to be one of the key unlocks for learning.
We’re gonna talk about that on an upcoming podcast, aren’t we? But you know, this idea that I’ve learned something by rote and therefore I’m going to do well in an exam, or it will be useful to me in later life, it’s probably been quite foundationally questioned for this generation.
Sarah: Absolutely. And I think come the age of nine, you’re also starting to think about your identity. You’re becoming a lot more conscious. Absolutely not a psychologist, but you start to feel like you’ve got the parameters of society that are starting to look at in terms of what’s right, what’s wrong, and everything becomes a lot more binary. Whereas I think in younger children it’s just a default setting in terms of imagination.
Adam, you talked about having a three year-old. I’ve got a nine year-old niece and a four-year-old niece, and some of their most favourite things to do are to either sit there and colour and play or getting up and playing Little Red Riding Hood, and it doesn’t matter that we don’t have the dress up clothes. And we don’t have this, like, they’re quite happy for someone to be the wolf.
Adam: Or it’s doing them all together. It’s getting the Elsa dress on, getting the Elsa hair done, drawing Elsa whilst listening to Frozen.
Sarah: Absolutely. It’s amazing. And I think we start to lose some of that as we get older.
Adam: Yeah.
Sarah: Kids don’t create to be impressive. They create because it’s what’s in their head. Whereas as adults and as we start to get older, I think that we filter our imagination through, is it correct? Is it neat? Is it useful? And children just don’t do that and that is amazing to be able to see and experience that.
Laura: I think this is super interesting because I’ve got an almost 9-year-old and it is that interesting tension where you are seeking for them to keep that sense of curiosity and that sense of openness. But at the same time, there are more and more rules that are kind of being imposed on them, from like, handwriting should look like this, you know, you should show you are working in maths this way. And I suppose it’s actually really powerful to have a space where it’s like you can be free. There is no right or wrong way of doing this. And, it’s also just for you rather than something you present to the outside world.
Sarah: And joy, I think, is one of the things that trying to continue to bring together joy, creative moments, bring joy.
Laura: Yeah.
Sarah: And how do we continue to find more joy through more creative moments? I think we’d all like a bit more joy in the world as well.
Laura: Oh a hundred percent!
Sarah: So if creativity is an enabler of joy, we should be doing more of it.
Laura: This is an interesting tension for you though, right? Because you are trying to think like a kid, think joyfully, but also do a day job that like everybody else, you know, has to think commercially.
How do you try and foster a creative mindset or a child-centric mindset when you are briefing or thinking about what good looks like?
Sarah: I think we are really lucky to be in a team. A lot of people have children in their network that we ask a lot of questions to because I do think that to your point, you lose some of that as you go from being a child to an adult. And I really want to keep that child’s viewpoint. I’m super lucky that I’ve got two nieces and I ask them a lot of questions trying to get into that child world.
Our US team brings a lot of children into the office and we kind of share ideas with them, like in terms of research and get their viewpoint. So we really do try and keep the child at the heart of everything that we’re doing. Yes, we sometimes have to make commercial decisions. Yes, we have to commercialise some of our decisions, but making sure that we don’t lose the essence of the fact that we have got children at the heart of what we’re doing is super important to us.
Adam: Are there things that you’ve learned from children that as adults we tend to forget through this kind of work that you’ve been doing? Is there something that children have taught you about creativity that you now bring to your work?
Sarah: I think the biggest thing that children show me is that there are no limits to what we can do and that anything is possible. They often ask why. Why? Why? To be able to get there. And I think that is such expansive thinking to be able to help us think why, why, why? Not why not? Why not? And I love that idea of there’s no limits to it.
Our brains can be so expansive. You can connect certain pieces together of the jigsaw just through asking a why question. So I love seeing that through the eyes of children.
Laura: I think at the very beginning of our chat you highlighted something super interesting, which was about attention spans, and you had some amazing stats there where you said, look, attention spans are shorter. That’s a reality that as a brand you are going to have to work with. Of course you are in an interesting position because the gatekeepers or the people paying for it won’t really want to reward less attention being paid. They’re buying into you because time can be taken. You’re not on a screen. It’s not about instant gratification.
How do you walk that line tonally, like being in the right places to be seen and considered appealing, but also sticking to what you’ve promised, which is something a bit more thoughtful than, than all of tech.
Sarah: It is really a hard line to kind of straddle at the moment because we know what grabs children’s attention is iPads, screen times.
It’s very easy for them and it’s also easy to some degree, for parents to be able to, you know, busy parents be able to put your children down and know that they’re going to stay there if you kind of leave them in front of a screen because they’re so transfixed by it. So I think one of the areas that we really try and work to is how we can mindfully incorporate that screen time to our products to really enhance the experience.
So for example, one of the key products that sit under our portfolio, so called Scribble Scrubbies in the US, currently called Washables in the UK, it will soon be called Scribble Scrubbies in the UK as well. Each of the packs have a QR code on them, and you can scan them, and that takes you through to an app.
The purpose of that app is about amplification of the product experience. So whilst you can draw, you wash the product underwater so you can draw on it again and again and again. Actually, what the app enables you to do is to be able to put your reality and your 3D product as you sit into an ecosystem within the app.
So it’s kind of like 2D and 3D together.
Laura: Oh, I’ve seen those. It’s like in museums where kids draw and it ends up going on the wall or something like that yeah.
Sarah: So it’s more like your characters come to life through this app as well. We also have a YouTube channel globally, which has a huge amount of content.
It’s kind of very purposeful in terms of teaching children how to draw as well. So it serves a purpose and I think everything that we do is all about kind of laddering back up to the purpose of Crayola. So we use those touch points in order to enhance the purpose and amplify the experience that children have.
Laura: Amazing. Sarah, thank you so much. So enjoyed this conversation.
Sarah: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
Adam: What a fascinating discussion. I absolutely loved that. So much of what Sarah was saying I could just see as a reality in my life.
I’m especially drawn to this idea that we need to learn from children about what it means to be creative and imaginative, and approach problems in that completely open and free-minded way. I think all the stuff that’s going on in marketing at the moment, you know, we’ve talked a lot about AI and the kind of flattening of different skills. I think it’s those that are really truly creative and can think outside the box that are gonna be able to continue to add that value to their businesses.
Laura: Yeah, I agree. I also think it’s a fascinating category working with kids because you are really thinking about benefits and you’re thinking about occasions first and then sort of cumulatively building your brand through those things. It’s an incredibly competitive field, but then you look at the sort of skills and technology they’re bringing in from R&D, from a really deep understanding of consumers and you can see like building up that differentiation and kind of being the central point in a creative moment. Even if there’s a lot of other stuff going on. It is really what it’s about. And I kind of like that for brands because you know, we can’t all own every single moment.
Adam: Yeah.
Laura: We can only enhance it. It links to demand spaces, it links to occasions. You know, really understanding what is the need in that particular moment and how can we be the best thing within that situation as a way of driving our brand relevance.
Adam: Absolutely. One of the criticisms we have in marketing is that we think inside our categories and inside our sectors.
Laura: That’s right. Yeah.
Adam: And when you view the world through the life of a child…
Laura: Yeah.
Adam: …it just breaks all those barriers down and it forces us to really think about the person and not the way that we’ve organised our organisations.
Laura: That’s right. The category is entertainment. The occasion is this, the need is this like it’s a really interesting way. It’s a good challenge for all of us actually.
Adam: Yeah. That’s the takeout. Then we need to all think about our categories through the lens of a child.
Laura: Except alcohol maybe. Hopefully.
Adam: Yes.
Laura: See you next time!
Adam: See you next time.
So if you enjoyed that episode all about learning from younger consumers, you should listen to the episode about learning from older consumers with Jen Whyte at Haleon.
Jennifer: Marketing’s a young world. It’s a young person’s game. You’re delivering against a category need, that need doesn’t change necessarily.
So I still need to clean my teeth, whether I’m 20 or I’m 55. Where does the money lie? The money lies with this older cohort.
